Petit text bien aimé:Why not a sportbike for your first bike

**Makiavel** · 27/10/2005, 12h54

After a rash of posts about what bike to get as a first bike, and a lot of posts defending the reasoning behind "only a 600" or "having respect", or "too big to ride a small bike"....

Why not a GSXR/R6/ZXR/CBR/996 etc?

Well, I am not sure that the fact that these are "only 600's" means a great deal, they are seen as "slow" by newer riders, and therefore easier to master than the 1000cc versions. Many people have said that they feel a 750 would be fine.

I guess that your idea of slow, is a fair bit different to mine. My idea of slow is something that accelerates like, say, a Geo Metro, not something that accelerates faster than a Dodge Viper.

Lets face it, the modern 600 is faster than a 750 of six or seven years ago, in a straight line, up to about 130mph.......

Six years ago the 750 class was in the middle of open warefare season, the (then new) SRAD 750 was the king of the beasts, trouncing the CBR900RR, and the FZR1000 or Chunderace) and destroying everything else in its path. Not just in a straight line either, but the 96 SRAD was a marvellous corner carver.

In its day, it was brutal - it still is, wild head shakes, inadvertant wheelies, and an utterly brutal rush beyond 10K RPM.

The latest 600's whilst just as fast, are only slightly more civilised, the power is not as brutal, but there is still a huge rush, and on the dyno they are only a couple of HP short of the benchmark.

So the power of the latest 600's is amazing, there is frankly more than 99% of people can use, and more than anyone can need on the street - on the track its a different matter, but we are talking street bikes here.....

Its not just the power either, its the power delivery.

These bikes are race-bikes with lights, or at least they are very, very similar to race bikes. In order to be competative in racing, where modifications are minimal, the engines are tuned to be very "racer friendly". The throttle response beyond a few thousand revs is instant, this is great if you are on a track, but merely OK on the road. If you are heavy-handed, it can be very dangerous. The MSF course teaches you to roll on the throttle in a curve, to a newr rider, rolling on is just that, add 1/4 turn maybe ? Well with a modern sports bike 1/4 turn is FULL throttle. Rolling on on these bikes means may 1/32nd of a turn - if that.

This is not a nice trait - you have just gone from 20hp to 80hp in the blink of an eye, and you lowsided - if you are lucky- into the scenery.

So, handling is the next problem.

These bikes are race bikes with lights, this means that they are super-fast handling. In fact they are astonishingly nervous, in order to make they turn fast, they are set-up to respond to minute inputs, and this is another major issue for a new rider. A new rider will not have the subltly of input that the bike needs, rather than push the bars, you apply a slight pressure, and the bike sails into the bends, push on the bars hard, and it becomes all nervous and unsettled, and again, the new rider may be lucky to get through the bend.

Obviously this will not be a good thing - to an experienced rider these bikes feel planted, and predictable, for a new rider, they feel horrible, and your confidence takes a hit.

Ok - Brakes

Again, these bikes are similar to race bikes. One of the few places that they differ is in the braking department. The brake pads have to last a little longer than race compound ones, so they are a little less brutal than those on a racer, also they have rubber hoses, which have a little "give" in them, making it harder to lock the fronts.

But, they are still eye-poppingly good, its possible to stand any of these bikes on its nose, at really, really high speeds, assumning you are hard enough on the brakes.

Then there is the rear brake, and again this is overly efficient, all too easy to lock it, all to easy to high-side as a result of the locked brake.

Repair costs.

As they are race replica's they comer covered in expensive plastic. Each side is $600 or more. A slow-speed drop could easily cost you over $1000 just in plastic bits. Add to that the normal "consumables" and you are in the $1300 range for a 10mph spill.

Combine all of these factors, and I hope that you see why a sportsbike is not a good first bike.

It has exactly the wrong set of characteristics for a new rider to learn to ride. Its too fast, too responsive, too twitchy, too nervous, the brakes are too sharp and they cost a lot to fix.

I'm not going to tell you that you should not get one (I'm not your mother), just that you need to bear in mind that these bikes belong in the "expert class", not the "new rider" one.

honda4life · 27/10/2005, 14h59

wow!!!!!!!! simply amazing post!!!!!!!

Totally agree! buying a new 600 as a first bike is just insane!

I bought a 600f4 as my first bike and i can say it's way too fast!

just be carefull! i absolutely adore your quote : "I guess that your idea of slow, is a fair bit different to mine. My idea of slow is something that accelerates like, say, a Geo Metro, not something that accelerates faster than a Dodge Viper."

amazing!

HellCrow · 27/10/2005, 16h34

Then, I am insane ...

HRC-E.B. · 27/10/2005, 19h21

Citation:

Envoyé par HellCrow

Then, I am insane ...

Pas insane, mais disons que lorsque tu réaliseras, après deux saisons, que tu aurais pu progresser plus vite autrement (comme je l'ai réalisé moi-même), peut-être que ta perspective changera.

On a juste aucune idée, tant qu'on n'a pas roulé avec du monde qui roule pour vrai (i.e., des riders capables de brasser des supersport comme on peut brasser un petit motocross) jusqu'à quel point on a aucune idée de ce qu'on fait sur un bike sport...

Cela dit, j'aime ça quand même mon CBR et mon RC, mais en sachant ce que je sais maintenant: 1) j'aurais dû faire du motocross avant et 2) commencer avec un SV650 et le pousser à bout avant de changer.

charley586 · 28/10/2005, 02h38

J'ai fait beaucoup de motocross et 5 ans de courses en mx. Quand j'ai fait mon permis j'avais quand même une certaine nervosité. Alors j'imagine pas ceux qui partent de rien. En fait j'en ai vu quelques uns et sérieusement ces personnes là faut pas ça se retrouve sur la route car ça va se retrouver dans le fossé. J'ai checké pour un pacquet de bike différent et je vais commencer avec un SV650 usagé. Je vais aussi surement prendre un cour sur circuit fermé car dans les cours on apprend à être sécure pas les technique à rider. Par expérience en motocross c,est les meilleurs investissements que j'ai fait dans ma carrière. Je suis même pour que la SAAQ limite le choix de son premier bike à certains modèle question d'apprendre c'est quoi rider dans le traffic. Comme en France en fait mais peut-être pas à ce point mais sur le même principe. Selon moi tout le monde va être gagnant, moins d'accident, assurance moins cher, meilleur image. C'est chiant les premières années mais au bout de la ligne c'est payant. C'est juste les poseurs de terrasses qui vont chialer je crois.

Ghost Rider · 28/10/2005, 23h08

I agree 100%, but I have to add, that many people do have the restraint and patience to learn on a 600 or liter bike.

**racerdude413** · 28/10/2005, 23h44

Citation:

I agree 100%, but I have to add, that many people do have the restraint and patience to learn on a 600 or liter bike

you agree, but seems you didnt understand by your answer. Restraint and patience have nothing to do with it, that's exactly what the guy is trying to make people understand.

Citation:

In fact they are astonishingly nervous, in order to make they turn fast, they are set-up to respond to minute inputs, and this is another major issue for a new rider

Citation:

It has exactly the wrong set of characteristics for a new rider to learn to ride. Its too fast, too responsive, too twitchy, too nervous, the brakes are too sharp and they cost a lot to fix

Citation:

Well with a modern sports bike 1/4 turn is FULL throttle. Rolling on on these bikes means may 1/32nd of a turn - if that.

These things are all about experience and confidence, not restraint and patience. you dont know your turning the throttle too much or braking too hard until your on the ground.

HRC-E.B. · 30/10/2005, 01h14

Citation:

Envoyé par racerdude413

Citation:

I agree 100%, but I have to add, that many people do have the restraint and patience to learn on a 600 or liter bike

you agree, but seems you didnt understand by your answer. Restraint and patience have nothing to do with it, that's exactly what the guy is trying to make people understand.

Citation:

In fact they are astonishingly nervous, in order to make they turn fast, they are set-up to respond to minute inputs, and this is another major issue for a new rider

Citation:

It has exactly the wrong set of characteristics for a new rider to learn to ride. Its too fast, too responsive, too twitchy, too nervous, the brakes are too sharp and they cost a lot to fix

Citation:

Well with a modern sports bike 1/4 turn is FULL throttle. Rolling on on these bikes means may 1/32nd of a turn - if that.

These things are all about experience and confidence, not restraint and patience. you dont know your turning the throttle too much or braking too hard until your on the ground.

Agreed 100%. Restraint might prevent you from killing or seriously hurting yourself. The same restraint (usually erring on the side of TOO MUCH restraint, because the machine is somewhat nervous and you're scared of it) will also impair your development as a rider. That was the point of the author's commentary. And a valid one that only riders with a modicum of experience will understand...

voltaire · 31/10/2005, 10h00

J'ai commencé cette année avec un 600cc (r6 -2005)... Je suis loin d'être un pro après ma première saison, mais c'est un vieux débat : quel moto achetez pour un débutant ?

Pour ma part, je crois que c'est entre les 2 oreilles surtout... Je n'es pas planté ma machine, mis à part mon stand qui à glisser lorsque je me stationnais.... Une chose est sûr, avoir eu ce bolide lorsque que j'avais 18 ans je serais mort.. Quoique qu'au nombre de old timer qui se plante en harley

Mais la maturité ou un instinct de survivre plus poussée avec l'âge fait en sorte que j'ai survécue à ma première saison...

Mais ce qui est dangereux, c'est le pear pressure des autres riders... Un débutant en moto sport et un ou des experts en moto sport, c'est un mix dangereux... C'est pour cela que ma première saison, je n'ai pas ridé souvent avec la gang de m4e.. J'aimais mieux apprendre par moi même et allez à mon rhytme sans me faire traitez de fif ou de retardez inutilement les plus expérimentés.. J'ai ainsi aquis de l'assurance mais j'ai toujours un immense respect pour ma machine et je suis conscient de mes limites.. C'est pour cela que je trouve la règle des accompagnateurs complètement inconscient...

Chubien · 31/10/2005, 10h22

Citation:

Envoyé par HRC-E.B.

Citation:

Envoyé par racerdude413

Citation:

I agree 100%, but I have to add, that many people do have the restraint and patience to learn on a 600 or liter bike

you agree, but seems you didnt understand by your answer. Restraint and patience have nothing to do with it, that's exactly what the guy is trying to make people understand.

Citation:

In fact they are astonishingly nervous, in order to make they turn fast, they are set-up to respond to minute inputs, and this is another major issue for a new rider

Citation:

It has exactly the wrong set of characteristics for a new rider to learn to ride. Its too fast, too responsive, too twitchy, too nervous, the brakes are too sharp and they cost a lot to fix

Citation:

Well with a modern sports bike 1/4 turn is FULL throttle. Rolling on on these bikes means may 1/32nd of a turn - if that.

These things are all about experience and confidence, not restraint and patience. you dont know your turning the throttle too much or braking too hard until your on the ground.

Agreed 100%. Restraint might prevent you from killing or seriously hurting yourself. The same restraint (usually erring on the side of TOO MUCH restraint, because the machine is somewhat nervous and you're scared of it) will also impair your development as a rider. That was the point of the author's commentary. And a valid one that only riders with a modicum of experience will understand...

+1

As a "once experienced" rider returning after 9 year absence I am aware that the bike I have IS slowing me down as opposed to driving a smaller displacement motorcycle. The "engine" factor adds to the equation, more specifically in my case curb exits and as a whole I am slower on the 900 than I used to be on my 600's.

27/10/2005, 12h54	#1 (permalink)
Makiavel Administrator Date d'inscription: novembre 2002 Localisation: up north Messages: 2 826 Pouvoir de réputation: 50 Reputation: 323 Moto: CBR954	Petit text bien aimé:Why not a sportbike for your first bike After a rash of posts about what bike to get as a first bike, and a lot of posts defending the reasoning behind "only a 600" or "having respect", or "too big to ride a small bike".... Why not a GSXR/R6/ZXR/CBR/996 etc? Well, I am not sure that the fact that these are "only 600's" means a great deal, they are seen as "slow" by newer riders, and therefore easier to master than the 1000cc versions. Many people have said that they feel a 750 would be fine. I guess that your idea of slow, is a fair bit different to mine. My idea of slow is something that accelerates like, say, a Geo Metro, not something that accelerates faster than a Dodge Viper. Lets face it, the modern 600 is faster than a 750 of six or seven years ago, in a straight line, up to about 130mph....... Six years ago the 750 class was in the middle of open warefare season, the (then new) SRAD 750 was the king of the beasts, trouncing the CBR900RR, and the FZR1000 or Chunderace) and destroying everything else in its path. Not just in a straight line either, but the 96 SRAD was a marvellous corner carver. In its day, it was brutal - it still is, wild head shakes, inadvertant wheelies, and an utterly brutal rush beyond 10K RPM. The latest 600's whilst just as fast, are only slightly more civilised, the power is not as brutal, but there is still a huge rush, and on the dyno they are only a couple of HP short of the benchmark. So the power of the latest 600's is amazing, there is frankly more than 99% of people can use, and more than anyone can need on the street - on the track its a different matter, but we are talking street bikes here..... Its not just the power either, its the power delivery. These bikes are race-bikes with lights, or at least they are very, very similar to race bikes. In order to be competative in racing, where modifications are minimal, the engines are tuned to be very "racer friendly". The throttle response beyond a few thousand revs is instant, this is great if you are on a track, but merely OK on the road. If you are heavy-handed, it can be very dangerous. The MSF course teaches you to roll on the throttle in a curve, to a newr rider, rolling on is just that, add 1/4 turn maybe ? Well with a modern sports bike 1/4 turn is FULL throttle. Rolling on on these bikes means may 1/32nd of a turn - if that. This is not a nice trait - you have just gone from 20hp to 80hp in the blink of an eye, and you lowsided - if you are lucky- into the scenery. So, handling is the next problem. These bikes are race bikes with lights, this means that they are super-fast handling. In fact they are astonishingly nervous, in order to make they turn fast, they are set-up to respond to minute inputs, and this is another major issue for a new rider. A new rider will not have the subltly of input that the bike needs, rather than push the bars, you apply a slight pressure, and the bike sails into the bends, push on the bars hard, and it becomes all nervous and unsettled, and again, the new rider may be lucky to get through the bend. Obviously this will not be a good thing - to an experienced rider these bikes feel planted, and predictable, for a new rider, they feel horrible, and your confidence takes a hit. Ok - Brakes Again, these bikes are similar to race bikes. One of the few places that they differ is in the braking department. The brake pads have to last a little longer than race compound ones, so they are a little less brutal than those on a racer, also they have rubber hoses, which have a little "give" in them, making it harder to lock the fronts. But, they are still eye-poppingly good, its possible to stand any of these bikes on its nose, at really, really high speeds, assumning you are hard enough on the brakes. Then there is the rear brake, and again this is overly efficient, all too easy to lock it, all to easy to high-side as a result of the locked brake. Repair costs. As they are race replica's they comer covered in expensive plastic. Each side is $600 or more. A slow-speed drop could easily cost you over $1000 just in plastic bits. Add to that the normal "consumables" and you are in the $1300 range for a 10mph spill. Combine all of these factors, and I hope that you see why a sportsbike is not a good first bike. It has exactly the wrong set of characteristics for a new rider to learn to ride. Its too fast, too responsive, too twitchy, too nervous, the brakes are too sharp and they cost a lot to fix. I'm not going to tell you that you should not get one (I'm not your mother), just that you need to bear in mind that these bikes belong in the "expert class", not the "new rider" one. __________________ Have no Heroes, look up to no one, because if someone is always leading the way, the best you'll ever be is 2nd!

28/10/2005, 02h38	#5 (permalink)
charley586 World speed record Date d'inscription: octobre 2005 Localisation: Montréal est (PAT) Messages: 2 376 Pouvoir de réputation: 7 Reputation: 78 Moto: Honda CRF450 2006 (bouette) et Yamaha R6 2001 (track)	J'ai fait beaucoup de motocross et 5 ans de courses en mx. Quand j'ai fait mon permis j'avais quand même une certaine nervosité. Alors j'imagine pas ceux qui partent de rien. En fait j'en ai vu quelques uns et sérieusement ces personnes là faut pas ça se retrouve sur la route car ça va se retrouver dans le fossé. J'ai checké pour un pacquet de bike différent et je vais commencer avec un SV650 usagé. Je vais aussi surement prendre un cour sur circuit fermé car dans les cours on apprend à être sécure pas les technique à rider. Par expérience en motocross c,est les meilleurs investissements que j'ai fait dans ma carrière. Je suis même pour que la SAAQ limite le choix de son premier bike à certains modèle question d'apprendre c'est quoi rider dans le traffic. Comme en France en fait mais peut-être pas à ce point mais sur le même principe. Selon moi tout le monde va être gagnant, moins d'accident, assurance moins cher, meilleur image. C'est chiant les premières années mais au bout de la ligne c'est payant. C'est juste les poseurs de terrasses qui vont chialer je crois. __________________

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27/10/2005, 14h59	#2 (permalink)
honda4life Stunter Date d'inscription: septembre 2005 Localisation: rive-sud Messages: 215 Pouvoir de réputation: 0 Reputation: 10 Moto: gsx-r 1000 2k3,cbr600rr track	wow!!!!!!!! simply amazing post!!!!!!! Totally agree! buying a new 600 as a first bike is just insane! I bought a 600f4 as my first bike and i can say it's way too fast! just be carefull! i absolutely adore your quote : "I guess that your idea of slow, is a fair bit different to mine. My idea of slow is something that accelerates like, say, a Geo Metro, not something that accelerates faster than a Dodge Viper." amazing!

27/10/2005, 16h34	#3 (permalink)
HellCrow 12 O'clock Date d'inscription: juin 2005 Localisation: Mont-Laurier Messages: 11 455 Pouvoir de réputation: 17 Reputation: 472 Moto: DRZézette SuperMopette	Then, I am insane ...

28/10/2005, 23h08	#6 (permalink)
Ghost Rider Stunter Date d'inscription: février 2003 Localisation: Laval Messages: 101 Pouvoir de réputation: 0 Reputation: 10 Moto: GSX-R1000K4 LTD	I agree 100%, but I have to add, that many people do have the restraint and patience to learn on a 600 or liter bike.

31/10/2005, 10h00	#9 (permalink)
voltaire World champion Date d'inscription: août 2004 Messages: 781 Pouvoir de réputation: 6 Reputation: 35 Moto: 2 roues et un moteur	J'ai commencé cette année avec un 600cc (r6 -2005)... Je suis loin d'être un pro après ma première saison, mais c'est un vieux débat : quel moto achetez pour un débutant ? Pour ma part, je crois que c'est entre les 2 oreilles surtout... Je n'es pas planté ma machine, mis à part mon stand qui à glisser lorsque je me stationnais.... Une chose est sûr, avoir eu ce bolide lorsque que j'avais 18 ans je serais mort.. Quoique qu'au nombre de old timer qui se plante en harley Mais la maturité ou un instinct de survivre plus poussée avec l'âge fait en sorte que j'ai survécue à ma première saison... Mais ce qui est dangereux, c'est le pear pressure des autres riders... Un débutant en moto sport et un ou des experts en moto sport, c'est un mix dangereux... C'est pour cela que ma première saison, je n'ai pas ridé souvent avec la gang de m4e.. J'aimais mieux apprendre par moi même et allez à mon rhytme sans me faire traitez de fif ou de retardez inutilement les plus expérimentés.. J'ai ainsi aquis de l'assurance mais j'ai toujours un immense respect pour ma machine et je suis conscient de mes limites.. C'est pour cela que je trouve la règle des accompagnateurs complètement inconscient...